Wednesday, August 6, 2008


Yesterday, my son went to a girl's birthday party and somehow, like always, they ended up back in our house. I'll call the birthday girl Casey. I had noticed marks on her arms and legs, strangely symmetrical lines that never seemed to heal. And as usual, when I asked my son about those marks later, he told me he was busy. (He was making a frozen pizza and texting the kids who had just left our house - when I pointed out to him that didn't qualify him as busy, he got the desperate look of a trapped animal).

So yes, he said, she's a cutter, only she's a real cutter and not a fake emo cutter.
Ahh, I said, that's...what on earth?

I know teenagers cut themselves. There's at least one YA book on it and it's being mentioned more and more in YA lit. I've heard the teenagers in my living room say sentences such as, "Oh, Josh, the kid who cuts?" Followed by, "Nah, he only cut when he was going out with so and so...he doesn't anymore." Cutting is mentioned in a lot of metal song lyrics. It's a strangely accepted habit.

Kids who cut say they do it because it makes them feel better, and this is true. Doctors say cutting releases endorphins which actually DOES make the kids feel better. It's a form of release.

But the problem I see, aside from the bizarreness of self mutilation, is that there are "fake" cutters (emo cutting for attention) and the more Goth type of cutting which the kids view as authentic and a little brave. How does anyone tell when the attention-getting cutting crosses the line? And why do parents not know more about this?

When I casually mentioned this once before, in front of Casey's step mom, she thought I was referring to cutting class. She said she had never heard of it and changed the subject.

That exchange explained a lot about Casey and probably about most teens who engage in this habit.

Just a note: If you want to leave a comment, it won't be seen unless you go to This blog is dedicated to teen issues now since a few of these posts elicited such a strong response : )


Mary Witzl said...

My kids have friends who cut, and it is so hard to understand. They have confirmed what you say -- that emos only talk about doing it, but cutters are emos who have graduated. They also claim that it is a growing trend and that younger kids are beginning to do it more. They swear that not all the kids who do it do it because they are troubled; rather they do it because it is a trend.

Like your son's friend, a friend of my eldest daughter cuts obsessively and has a whole array of cuts that are worryingly deep and festering. They will absolutely scar. I know her parents; they are very bright, good people. Another girl who cuts has a father in prison. It just doesn't seem to make sense, but it does make tattoos and piercings seem tame.

Anne Spollen said...

Right, there have been kids as young as 10 and 11 imitating their teenage siblings. And it's impossible to sort out which kids are the "real" cutters and which ones just talk about it.
It's also spreading -- so many kids are doing this now that it's becoming part of the teen angst outfit.

Mary Witzl said...

I was thinking the other day about this -- how terrible it is that kids are scarring themselves this way, for fashion. Then I met a woman my age who has been scarring HERself for fashion for the past 20 years, going to tanning salons and spending ever spare moment roasting in the sun. And I do believe that even serious cutters might have healthier skin than hers.

It could be worse. And if these cutters really do go out into the sun, it would be worse.

TerriRainer said...

My best friend's teen daughter was a cutter for years. It often escalates to suicide attempts, which was her fear.

I have researched self-mutilation, and had many talks with her daughter. I just don't get it, but it's not the first time I realize that I was raised in a different time.

Kids now days tend to shrug and not think it's abnormal to do something so ridiculous.

:) Terri

Anonymous said...

Just want to set something straight first. Not all kids are doing this as a form of attention, it's a problem that they cannot control.

I started this in grade 10. I am now 20yrs old and have tried stopping many times due to either a friend who would be upset with me after I did it, or as of now my boyfriend whom it effects.

Yes, I agree it is not a smart choice but I was having suicidal thoughts, and making a small cut would make me settle right down, and not even think about anything, and would usually just fall asleep.

Most kids that I've talked to who do this had a bad childhood, and/or trauma of some sort.

Oh, and people who do it don't exactly accept it. It's very very addicting. Other people do drugs, smoke, punch walls ect as a way to relieve stress, this is a different way that most people can
't control.

Anne Spollen said...

I am actually researching this more because the kids in both my boys' circle of friends cut. There IS a medical reason people do this, and it is usually born out of untreated depression. It provides relief to psychic pain, and it IS spreading to kids as young as 9/10 as a practice.

But there seem to be a lot of misconceptions surrounding cutting.

Anonymous said...

im a cutter and its b/c im always feeling pain from everywhere most ppl dont understand but yes i know its a big big deal but my parents know about it know and we have been dealing with it and ive been getting better but that out side of school not in school. its starts to get harder to deal with and ill find a way!

Anonymous said...

I cut and I can't stop. It just makes me feel better and i awlays swear I am going to do it for the last time when I am doing it. Then I don't stop. I have to do it again and my parents know and my dad saw me do it once and I just acted like I was kidding around. Me and my boyfriend cut togehther and at least he understands me.

Anonymous said...

I know exactly how addicting cutting can be because I was a cutter once. I still think about it often and it was a release for me. My mom had a few problems when I was growing up and when she passed away, I was absolutleydevastated. It felt good to hurt myself, even though I knew it was wrong. I finally broke down to my school guidance counsler and I received some help. Unfortunately, I don't think they took it that seriously. It's so hard to stop but I have been successful for some months. I am lucky that I did not seriously scar myself or really hurt myself.

Shane Andrews said...

THIS IS A RANT READ NO MORE IF YOU DO NOT WISH----- I dont know about any of the "medical" reasons behind it, but i am sick of hearing "OH! no one understands me, life is so hard, i think i should go slit my wrists" I do know that if every "cutter" were to get a hair-cut, some new clothes and some new friends they wouldent waste there time feeling sorry for their invisible problems

Natalie said...

first off I AM NOT EMO! I am someone who has many friends, I have tried every sport. I run cross country now and I like to try new things but I love to cut, its an addiction and I try to stop but it feels great. It feels great during and after and just seeing the blood is kinda a high for me. When I see the scars it shows that I did feel good and that I can feel good. You won't understand it if you don't do it but if you do cut then you do understand it.

Anonymous said...

well first off...ive had a very depressing life...ive gone through many losses of homes..ive lived on the streets dad is an acholholic...majorly..he wastes all his money on beer and bars.ive lost numerous loves.right now im going through a tough time over my curret girlfirend.i sucks.i hate people seeing the scars.but it does releve some of my stress.well alot of my stress at the time but at the same time it causes more stress becasue once people notice the nagg you and make fun of you.ive tried stopping.i was oing good or mnths..but i just kept bottleing everything up then finally i just went at it and now im left with giant scars all over my arms...its a horrible adiction.

Michelle said...

I'm 17...... And I cut. I know its stupid and my friends tend to get mad but I can't stop. I think that yes it is addicting. someone message me at

Anonymous said...

I used to cut a lot. Medical pros think they have it down to it's just "untreated depression" it's not depression. I felt helpless a lot. I felt like everything was in shambles, my life was going down the drain and no one cared. My dad was in the hospital for cancer, my mother couldn't work, my brother too young to work, and I was the only on going to school, working to keep the family afloat, and still trying to maintain a regular lifestlye. It's a relief thing. It was something I could control. I could make the pain stop, I could feel numb and keep going. That's what it's like. I'm not emo and I never was. I don't just wear all black and cry and say my life is horrible. I know there are others worse off out there. To some cutting is fashion a new trend that scars but to me it was an escape from the world I couldn't handle at 16. Today I think about it but I don't do it. I stopped for good when my boyfriend asked me to when he cried that one day he didn't want to find me dead. I do have scars that run deep. I look at them and know but it is an addiction that you have to fight hard against. This was just me other people have different stories.

Anonymous said...

i don't think anyone can really talk about this unless it's happened to them. when i'm in that frame of mind i can't think of what else i could do, cutting actually seems like a solution. and it is, it seems to solve everything just for a few seconds. i can remember cutting before i was 10, it just made me feel good- by the time i was 12 all of my friends were doing it, and i became part of some sort of cult. i feel sorry for anyone cutting for a trend, but at the same time they make me sick- because i'm 17 now and i still haven't beaten it.

Anonymous said...

Hi,iam 18 and last year i cut my self two one knows it. i don't know why,and how i did it,the only thing i know is that when you do it,it feels taking drugs,its really addicting,but when you see the scars you want to stop.i have manage to stop it,but i still have the scars.if you have never done this you can't know nothing,its bad and after you feel sorry,but you want to do it's a desease.i wish you all good luck.

Anonymous said...

i cut. and im young. but im adicted. i try to stop, but can't. and its not that bad. would you rather me do druges. so what i cute. i lose a lot of blood. but i haven't gone to the hospitale yet. I have beencuting for what tree years.

Anonymous said...

fake cutters. or real cutters. they still cut. and not everyone who cuts. is emo.

i'm 17 and i cut. i never ever everrrr thought that i would get to such a low. its an addiction and honestly people who cut need help. i'm getting the help i need. but when you look at me... the thought of myself being a cutter. would never cross your mind. i'm the good lil christian girl.

Shane Andrews.... people like you make me want to scream. its so insensitive to how other people are feeling. do you even know some of the hell that people have to live with each day? you shouldn't judge.

A sick as this sounds. the endorphins realeased when cutting are the same that are realeased when someone looks at porn. its a sick addiction. and its sad that so many people have to realease anxiety this way.. i have no idea how to stop cutting. even with help. it takes so much strength.

Anonymous said...

i cut. it's not because i was abused or mistreated. i am 14 and thriving at school. but sometimes this darker side to me comes out when no one is around(mostly at night) and i grab broken glass, or a knife or anything and i cut myself. i want to talk to someone about it, but i dont know who to talk to. my parents dont know, they can never know. and the only other person i know who cuts as well only does it for attention. i dont like talking to her. i dont want to talk to an adult....can anyone help me?

Anonymous said...

I'm only thirteen and I life isn't even bad but I definetly don't do it for attention. I'm so ashamed of it and most of my friends think it's crazy. Last year I was in a really deep depression and I wanted to commit suicide. But this year I found God and am actually happy. Yet I still cut. It's a comfort to know I can always turn to my blade when I feel down. A big reason why I cut is because I absolutely hate myself. I can't say it any more plainly than that. I once reached out to my mom and told her I cut but she just told me I was crazy and gave me a lecture. I'm never going to tell her anything again because she doesn't understand. I do feel extremely guilty knowing there are kids out there who have horrible lives but I can't stop. Cutting is the only control I have and I deserve the pain. When I screw up at anything I have to punish myself. I like knowing that at the end of the day I can watch blood drip down my arm and let go of everything inside of me. I hate people who think this is a cry for attention. I hope I helped you understand better.

marisela said...

i've been in & out of hospitals & "rehabs" for this & other stuff. buthow i see it is that everyone is different. some people & kids do it for attention & almost 100% of the time the ones that say i don't do it for attention are doing it for attention. please don't assume and categorize everyone who do this as one. everyone copes with life differently some by cleaning, exercising, talking, using drugs, cutting, studying, etc...... but in the end everyone is the same & everyone needs love & support. if u know someone doing this talk to them & get them help. don't give up on them, pull away or judge them just love them and support them for the good things.
parents please don't judge and just talk to ur kids & love them. again support them for the good and always be there for them even if u don't agree. i never had that but if i did i wouldn't have made many of the poor choices i did. please please please whatever u do don't judge or categorize everyone who do cut.

Anonymous said...

i have been cutting for a long time. and ive done drugs, drank, abused drugs, hitting things and nothing releives me more than cutting. i have severe depression and anxitey and debating whether i have bipolor or not. i am seriously addicted to cuttting myself. im trying to stop and i havent cut for about 2 weeks now and for me thats a huge thing. im real shaky like im withdrawling from drugs or something. i have so many problems and im only 16 years old. i just turned 16 in december. its an addiction i feel i never want to get rid of. yet at the same time i dont want to do it. i dont do cuz i want to fit in at school, i homeschool, its really not like that it just makes me feel very against it yet i do it.

Anonymous said...

im 14 years old I do cut and I have tryed to stop but it didnt work out all that well reading this has made me relize something that im not the only one out there that has problems and i have had a bad past i dont cut for attention and not a lot of people are called emo and i think it is wrong to judge these people,I go to high school i live a normal life but how can someone easily sit there and acctually label these kids just like me.Cutting is a form of letting it all out im doing an essay on it and what my teacher dosnt know is i am a cutter and if she were to find out i think she would be scared of me,just like a lot of people i we dont really care what people think or say.its just life get over it I cut and half and more kids and adults cut.

Anonymous said...

I cut and it feels amazing, it releases all my anger.

Anonymous said...

hey, im lea.
im 19, and i have cut for 8 years now.
i hate the kids that cut for attention.
no-one around me knows i cut.
it my thing, it gets me through.
things have happened in my life.
i have in no way had a terriable life, but i havent had a good one either.
iv tried to take my life 5 times now.
cutting is the only thing that keeps me going, sometimes it fails me and it isnt enough, but thats not often.
iv got a drink problem now, i think.
and i think i may be addicted to pain killers.
im on a vicious circle im killing myself over time.
i dont want to b a statistic.
but i am i suppose.
but yeh, i dont do it for attention.
i take about it online.
where no-one knows me.
i cant get help, ive tried, i have.
medication, counsellors, nothing works for me.
if u know someone is cutting, just try to understand please, dont hate them for it.
or show them up.
if someone found out and told my parents, eventhough im 19 i dont know what i would do.
i dont care about them, they dont care about me. but im surviving with cutting, it conserncers no-one else.
y do people have to judge???

Anonymous said...

i'm 15 and cant speak to anyone about cutting. my dad passed away and i dont want my family to find out about my scars. i have tried to stop but i have good days and bad days. there maybe people who do it for attention but i dont as i dont want anyone around me to know.

Anonymous said...

I been cutting for 2 yrs... i covered it up from everyone until i felt it started getting worse... i started doin it in yr 9.. the pleasure it brings is great. I am now addicted to it and have many scars.. i ahve to hide them as i do not want people knowing. sure some people know but only the ones i know can help. When it started getting too bad i contacted my doctor, who has now sent me to see a phychiatrist whom i see every week. I have not cut for about 3-4 weeks. But i feel worse as i hav no release for stress, anger etc..

If you are thinking of starting DONT!! it will be the worse decision you ever made, find another way to deal with your emotions... once you start, it is really hard to stop...

Anonymous said...

I believe cutting can be compared to being anorexic.
It is that serious! It sneaks into your life and one day you realise you can't control it any more.
I think its horrible to cut oneself but I've had my moments. You get sucked in and all you need is emotional release. One slash away and your feeling so much better. A bad habit!
If you start to even think about doing it... talk to someone and don't ever go down that road. Its addictive and dangerous... and it won't do you nothing good.

Joe said...

My name is Joe. I'll be 21 in a few months, and I've cut. I probably do it a little more unconventionally than most people, but it still means the same thing.

I will say right now, if anyone-- especially anyone still dealing with middle and high school, younger kids who want someone who knows what their going through, someone who has dealt with this for awhile-- if anyone wants someone to talk to, hit me up on msn
I'll try to help as much as I can, even if it means just being there to vent to.

I've had sort of a shitty life so far... My mom has cancer, we're slowly losing our house, both my mom and I are in debt from medical bills, me from college and credit cards. Neither one of us has has good choice in relationships, and people screw us over continuously when we let them get too close.

I started cutting about 5 years ago, after I found out that my older ex girlfriend was sleeping with another guy. I also do most of my own piercings now. To an extent, these things do relieve stress, and calm you down. They've gotten me through a couple of tight situations when I felt like life wasn't worth living anymore, and problems just kept building on me. As of right now, I broke up with my current ex almost a month ago, and it has been one of the hardest things I've had to deal with-- When someone who you are supposed to love and trust screws you over by continuously lying to you and doing things behind your back, why wouldn't it be hard? The relationship lasted for close to 3 years... and I gave her way too many chances. She noticed a few times that I did it, and made me promise not to do it anymore; when she would break a promise to me, thats the one I would break to her. It happened 2 or 3 times, and I would always slip up and forget to cover it up after I got out of the shower or something, and then I would get the lecture from her. She could never handle the fact that I wasn't going to kill myself, I was doing it to deal. She always told me that I deserved someone better, someone who didn't make me do that to myself... No matter what, I have a feeling there will always be those times when you need to get it out, and you're in a place where you can't- like at work alone, or home in your room. There are always times where you can't scream into a pillow or punch a wall due to other people noticing.

I've made it a point to not let other people see and know about my cutting... My family is veeeeery old-fashioned, and I'm looked at differently as it is by them just because of the way I look.They would think I was crazy if they ever found out!
When people have noticed in my family, I've even gone to the extent of lying to them and telling them that I cut my arm working with a slicer at my old job, just so they wouldn't find out.

My ex didn't and doesn't understand it.
Most parents won't understand it.
Most of your friends won't understand it.

If you find a friend who you've noticed has done it, stick with them. Talk to them. Get to know them better if you havn't already-- Getting a new perspective on things can change your entire outlook. You may be able to help each other just by sitting and listening to one another rant about life!

My name is Joe. I'm be 21 in a couple months, and I cut to deal.

Anonymous said...

I have friends. Good grades. Loving family. But lately... I just... All it takes is one bad comment. Just one. And depending on the strength of the remark it can send me in a downward spiral... Nobody can really tell. I just sit there. Emotionless...blank...stone I don't even day dream most of the time I don't even think and when I do it's horrible thoughts about myself and others so I try to steer clear while inside litttle me just cries as soon as I get home I remain in my robot trance until my homework is done and i'm off my parents radar. I run to my room where I go on community avatar websites and have fake relationships my only relationships and I sometimes go as far to cyber it's an addicting form of release then while i'm waiting for chat response I take out my red dyed paper clip and scrape i disturb myself when I cut I sit there in the same trance again until I bleed then a small sick smile creeps along my face. And then I stop for the night and simply cry myself to sleep. All cuz of one comment i think there is something wrong with me I prob have a severe case of depression but that scares me I don't want to go to counciling or take pills or be put in a speciAl room without my shoelaces. That would make it worse. I don't waaant to think that something is wrong with me and it scares me more that no one will know unless I come out and say something cuz no one cares enough my friends would just ditch me if they knew and the rest of the grade would laugh I think that they would laugh hysterically to see my photo next to the "ugly old woman" in the obituaries and the most terrifying fact of all, I turned thirteen five days ago. What will It be like when I'm eighteen? I hate when everybody laughs at goths and emos and say stuff like how's your wrists??? Cuz almost 80% of the time they dint cut until provoked by a bunch of jack asses nobody realizes that just a few nasty comments meant to be funny to the rest of the class could cause somebody to end there life nobody realizes the consequences of the little things they say and do some people just need to shut their freaking mouth

Anonymous said...

I have friends who 'cut' themselves. In my opinion most of them do it because they want attention. But others, my girlfriend for example, do it because they either are mistreated, scared or suicidal. I almost became a 'cutter' when somthing very tragic happened in my life. Usually its followed by not speaking loss of appitite and or wearing jackets no matter the weather. It is also natural for an emo to try 'Gender Bending' an in my opinion our parents shouldent freak the hell out if they think we're going to start cutting...

Anonymous said...

Most teenagers don't cut for attention. I cut, and it certainly isn't for attention. And it's easy to tell who is just doing it for attention because they are the people bragging about it and saying that it doesn't hurt when they do it...
Kids may have just started cutting because of a bad thing that happened to them, and then once they recover from that incident, you would think they'd stop. But it gets addictive so you can't stop, no matter how happy you are. And that's the whole reason that cutting is such a big deal or "trend" now, because of the addiction. It gives you a high just like any other drug would.

Anonymous said...

hello there...
I am from Croatia and I found your post about cutting...and I was touched...I am 19 years old..and I agree on everything in your post..
it is true...cutting does make you feel better...but it is only temporary and after that you feel even more miserable...

it is true...some kids do it for fun or just because other kids do it...and it is so sad..

I don't know the point of leaving comment but I just wanted to let you know that your post was really something and that I think that people should pay atention to those stuff more...


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Anonymous said...

hi im also ninteen and a guy and anonymous because im not proud of this old habit. yes it usually starts as curiousoty or to be cool in a scene croud. with me it was curiousoty i was intrested in goth and emo lifestyle no one i knew cut but i had just broke up with a girl and i was depressed (i was 16). there is alot of misinformation about emo and what it means. kids say they are emo. emo is not as easily defined as people think it is(music, dress, hair). it is the lifestyle of being sad, withdrawn,crying and sometimes cutting (yes emo kids do cut, not all but alot) but u do not have to be "emo" or "goth" to cut. i always would cut on my legs so my parents wouldnt see. parents be warned any household sharp object can be used from steak nives to razor blades to mirrors.(when i got really down and culdnt find anything on hand i even stooped to putting out ciggaretts on my arms and body) i find alot of genuene cutters are very emotional happy people naturaly but with no emotional outlets that are positive, thats were u come in :). they bottle their emotions up until they dont feel them anymore then eventually they need to cut to feel anything emotion wise. which i find is very serious and shuld be treated with utmost care from experience. i havent done it in a very long time and hope to keep it that way. if your child is cutting for attention give them POSITIVE attention (after having a talk or punishment of watever ur method is). yes it is a growing trend and kids are starting younger these days. they may need counciling. you may have to hide nives. either way its best to treat their depression or condition and let them kno companys frown upon cuts on your arms in job interviews.i kno this from experience also. tattos are a much better and safer alternative if u are of age to get them. like i said this can turn into a very serious condition and shuld be treated with extreme caution. my parents didnt handle it very well because they never knew how fragile and withdrawn from them i was.(they knew pretty much nothing of my life) i wanted positive attention from them and i recieved the oposite from cutting which made me do it more. NOT TO SAY UR KIDS SHULD NOT BE PUNISHED. just show them that u care i guess is wat im tryng to say. and try to remember its not the end of the world.

im also warning any other cutters........ i mean who wants to wear long sleeves in the summer time? u wont always want other people to see them u kno

Anonymous said...

I'm 24 and I'm a cutter. To start off, I want to say I've been dealing with Aspergers and OCD and Anxiety Disorder all my life. I've been self mutilating since my parents divorced when I was 8. I started just biting myself, but that got me more attention than I wanted so I stopped and turned to stabbing my closet wall. (I won't even tell you what happened when my mom discovered that.) Just a couple of years later, I found out about cutting through my therapist, actually. He wanted to know if I had been and I of course said no, but inside I was exited about the idea. I knew right away that I couldn't cut my arms or anywhere else my parents could see because I didn't want anyone to know about how I was getting relief from my depression and anxiety. So I started cutting my hips and upper thighs, where I could hide it under shorts. In highschool, I was an outcast, like I had been throughout my life, but I did make a few friends. I sort of became part of the "goth" clique. There were no "emos" when I was in school. But cutting was still kind of a 'cool' thing for a couple of us. I thought, how could they cut themselves and then show it off, like a trophy? To me it was something like masturbating, it's embarrassing and you don't talk about it. But I got really close to one girl and I confided in her and showed her all my scars and it just freaked her out how serious I was and we pretty much stopped being friends. I quit school later that year because I was in and out of the hospital for severe bleeding ulcers from stress so many times that my mom decided it was best to just get my GED. After a few years went by, things were starting to get better for a while until my father, who was finally one of my best friends, died last April, and then my girlfriend of 2 years died in July. My girlfriend knew and she still loved me and accepted me and when I was with her, I never thought about cutting myself, not once. I still live with my mom, who I really do love very much, and yes, I still cut myself, right now more than ever. I've never been suicidal, and I'm not, even now. But even though I do not want to kill myself, I think I wouldn't mind dying. If I was hurt, I don't think I would fight for life. I would probably just let go. I'm seeing a therapist again, but I haven't told him about my cutting or how I feel about dying. If I showed him my scars, he would have me admitted to a crisis unit, no question. Already, with the things I've told him so far, he's been flirting with the idea. And I enjoy my freedom. I just wanted to share my story with you, so perhaps you could better understand the vast world of cutters.

Anonymous said...

I'm 14 year old girl and cut... It's not for attention.. I was verbally abused and also have been physically abused for a short period of time by a boyfriend, I hav one friend who I trust, he cuts to... It kills us both to see the other do it and mentally we kno we shouldn't but when your under stress and a teen bad things happen... I also believe cutters hav a bad reputation because many people think that it's ok to cut because you want attention so next time you find a cutter handle the situation carefully, many who think people don't care and are out to get them will cut even more..

Anonymous said...

I'm a girl and I have been very sad and mad and very very violent lately...
I have cut myself 1 or 2 times only but I have only done it in place that I can only see like my legs I always were jeans. And my shoulders and one time even my neck. And trust me it does make me feel better and I'm really young ***(11 years old)***
And I have been through rough times. I just wanted to let you know that someone is out there wanting to help you take that persons hand and let them take you to your only personal space called ''Your own MIND''. And the person that is taking me to my MIND is taking me to a place called ''My Heart'' I need to start liesening to what my heart is telling me.

Bye! I Hope You Have A Good Place For Your Taker To Take You There.